What if Hitler never started the Eastern front or North Africa?

So does that mean we disagree? Your input is very informative, but it's an open issue to me. I still don't think naval parity is neccessary for invasion of England. air power is perhaps more significant. Long term planning,( starting in the 30's ), would be essential to invasion of England. Large tranport aircraft in significant numbers is another way to circumvent or bypass large enemy's navy. I suppose this has been discussed to death, but I will say this, short of the actual occurance of the event, it is near impossible to predict exact outcomes. Battles are messy, if airfields had been taken by paratroops, perhaps transport aircraft could land, if paratroops failed, the whole invasion could also fail. These are imposible factoids to determine short of the actual occurrance.

In reference to pocket battleships, I was referring to overall naval strategy, not invasion of England. Germany learned the value of U-boats & surface raiders in ww1 & should have leaned more that way rather than the compromise Z plan.

 

Well in 1940 the German airborne arm is in no shape to launch an airborne operation at Great Britian and neither is the Transport fleet after the heavy losses in Norway, Holland and Belgium. Plus the whole idea of landing troops transport on opposed airfields is unsound. To have relied on an airborne operation to instiagte the invasion of Britain would, at the very least, resulted in heavy para and transport losses.

But as I said, the losses incurred in operations in the West, notably in terms of Paras, specialist aircrews and transport aircraft, would negate an airborne operation till early 41.

 

The thought of Spitfires and Hurricanes - even Defiants - getting in amongst those Ju52s....

 

Not too mention the AA fire...

Would have been one hot LZ...

 

Agreed.But my scenario is not based on available forces in 1940, but rather on a pre designed,( yrs in advance ),invasion force. including large transport craft. The me 363? was it that came along in 41. if it could've been prioritized in late 30's & available in #'s, heavy equipment might've made it across. Can't argue with you on depleted para troops. Don't have the figures.

Spits, Hurries, & defiants gettin in amongst the transports? well of course, but they got in amongst the bombers in Bob as well, but many made it across & back regardless.

 

The gigant was an awful beast... the last place the Germans ever thought of putting that was in an airborne op! Very slow, no manourability and to mass produce it you would have to build the glider version and then need the troika towing system or a bloody big plane to pull it! As for the JU52s getting back after mixing with fighters... not a hope.

The Ju52 was not designed as a bomber, it did not have self sealing tanks for starters... have a look at the losses over the med... 500 in 3 weeks ( I cant get the book as I am all packed up to move house tomorrow!!! ) The only way to get the Ju52s over safely would be LOTS of fighter cover and this is no guarantee!

Its not just a case of para losses. The germans lost valuable aircrews during the airborne ops, including many bomber instructors and alot of JU52s.

The problem is that German airborne doctrine is fundamentally flawed, relying, as it does, on the possesion of enemy airfields to bring in air-transported troops. The Germans simply do not have enough paras for the operations they actually perform in the war. The Germans vastly underestimated the numbers of paras needed to fulfil the operational requirements, hence the need to use air-transported troops in opposed landings on enemy airfields.

The result being casualties in paras, air-transport troops and in the transport fleet. Add to that the factor of using weapons canisters and the German airborne force is greatly reduced in effectiveness. It has to rely on surprise to achieve victory. Or as at Crete, on the defender making mistakes.

But i understand your point that if planned for early enough it could work.

 

Sorry forgot to add that tactically the German airborne force was superb, seizing bridges and destroying forts, but they did not have the means to conduct large strategic operations. Too few paras...

What they need to do pre-war is to change 22nd Airlanding to a flieger division! Then make sure they have enough planes to drop them, they also need to get making gliders earlier and use them to deploy air landing formations rather than valuable JU52s...

 

I see that the Ju52 had a maximum speed of around 150mph.....maybe the Gloster Gladiators could have had a go, too !

 

I guess the only time to make the invasion with any chance would be when the British weren´t expecting it and were not ready for it.

The Germans did not have any real plans to follow the victory in the west so they could not make the **** invasion fleet in 1940 that could be seriously thought as a threat and Hitler knew that. As well Hitler was gambling on peace negotiations, I think.

So they would have had to attack over the channel immediately after they had broken through which means they should have sailed over late May-early June with everything they got. That would have given them the tiny chance of surprise but then again..what about the rest of France?

But this makes me wonder about quite funny things... How about German forces going over the channel among the operation Dynamo boats? Who lands first wins...??? Soldiers shooting at each other in boats. Nah, it would never work but probably the only chance Germans would have got in 1940.

 

Thanx for posts all. Only thing I might add is possibility of using bombers in conjunction with 52's for supply of paras, & also there is much flat land in se England for 52's and or gliders to belly in to as opposed to only using & landing at existing air bases. The objective to secure SE corner of England.

 

No unobstructed flat countryside in SE England, and that which there was ( eg Romney Marsh ) full of ditches, trees and man-made anti-landing obstructions. Large numbers of aircraft tried to crash-land during the the BofB - very few made it without somersaulting or striking an obstruction.

 

Really? that is interesting. I have seen so many crop circle photos on flat land. Must be further north where these things appear. One would think the Germans after ww1 would've made more effort in the way of planning an invasion of England if need be. But Hitler was nuts & obsessed with conquering the east so that's all there is to it. Bombing London to demoralize the Brit people was pretty dumb as well. Last question, if England had been taken, would not Brit gov tranferred to Canada & continued struggles in Africa & SE asia anyway?

 

And thats the whole point. The Germans would not do that as it would wreck their transport fleets. Look at the Ops in Holland. Problem is the landing at airfields was supposed to take place after being secured by paras but this never happened and they had to conduct opposed landings. Those in Norway only got on the ground due to a mad ME109 pilot landing and firing his guns on the way in as he was running out of fuel, the JU52s followed him down...

Yup, Brits govt, would have gone to CAnada...

 

I'll bet not many of those crop-circle photos were taken in 1940....

Sad fact is, SE England has changed a great deal in 60 years. Intensive farming methods were only adopted here in the 1960s/70s ; before this, the centuries-old methods of smallholding were the norm.

What does all this mean ? In 1940, there were lots of irregular-shaped small fields, criss-crossed with thick hedges,stone walls, patches of woodland, country lanes, etc - a very hostile environment to land an aircraft in.

As an aside, similar changes have effected Normandy - if you go there today, it's quite hard to find any bocage left....

 

Martin,

The mayor of Moncy told me last year that the only true bocage left in Normandy is in a mile square nature reserve...

Sorry for goin off topic slightly...

But you can spot the old widths of the Bocage by the woodland flowers that still grow in the old lines of the bocage.

 

Well, that settles that then. Of course the only X factor being Uberman!! But seriously, since the chances of success of invading England are roughly slim to none, how bout invading Portugal which would influence Spain to join Axis. Gibralter falls, then Morrocco. Part of the complexity of Morrocco is the Vichy French & even Italians wanted to be included in control of Morrocco I have read. I suppose something would've been worked out. Anyway, any comments on methods of attacking Portugal? I am aware Canaris fed Hitler some bs about difficulty of taking Spain.

 

Something on 'Sealion' from Eagle19...


Operation Seelöwe (Sealion)
How many people have pondered over the question, what would have happened if the Germans had successfully invaded England, I know that I have.
Invasion fever gripped southern England in the summer of 1940, Denmark and Norway, Belgium and Holland had all fallen with the aid of German airborne forces, surely England would be next.
Road signs were removed; potential drop zones were dotted with old vehicles and wooden poles, secluded country roads were covered with metal hoops to prevent glider landings. The rumour of parachutists dressed as nuns was a favourite at the time.
The only question was, when would they come?
Thankfully they never did, although many post war strategists have speculated the outcome.
After Dunkirk, Britain was very vulnerable, many of the 330 000 men lifted from the beaches returned without their weapons and thousands of trucks, tanks and artillery pieces had been left at Dunkirk. The RAF was hardly a match for the Luftwaffe either. That was the ideal time for an invasion, but it did not come. Hitler was sceptical about invading Britain, he admired the British and hoped that they would sue for peace. Hitler was quoted as saying "The British Empire is a major element of stability in the world. All I want is for England to recognize Germany's position on the continent. It is my intention to conclude a peace with Great Britain that she regards as honourable". Of course, an honourable peace would have turned Great Britain into a German satellite.
Hitler was anxious to bring the campaign in the west to an end, in July 1940 he challenged Britain to peace or be destroyed. Britain stood her ground and Hitler ordered preparations for an invasion to be made on 2nd July, code named Seelöwe (sealion), in accordance with Fuhrer Directive 16. Preparations were to be ready by mid-August.This delay in planning the invasion enabled the RAF to build up its strength, for the army to pull itself together.
A feasibility study was carried out which concluded that air superiority would have to be gained before any invasion could take place, a necessity for any air or seaborne assault. AdlerAngriff (eagle attacks), was the code name for the Luftwaffe operations designed to weaken the RAF over the skies of southern England in the summer of 1940. Adler Tag (eagle day), set for 13th August was the day the Luftwaffe assault would start in earnest. Coastal and inland targets would also have to be softened up, especially ports and harbours that were sheltering ships of the Royal Navy, the biggest threat to any invasion fleet. Ships of the Royal Navy outnumbered the Kriegsmarine and it was hoped that the balance could be tipped by air assaults on the British fleet and the use of E-Boats running out of channel ports. Airfields and radar stations near the coast would also have to be put out of action.
Once air superiority was achieved, the air and sea assaults could begin; these would be aimed at the southeast coast of England.
The German high command assessed that the invasion would need the use of 300 000 troops. One problem was how to get these men across the English Channel. The germans had no landing craft so barges would have to be used instead, but these could only be used in a calm sea. The only advantage was the barge's flat hulls which would enable them to be driven up onto the beaches. 2000 barges were acquired from all over the low countries in July and August 1940. They all had to be modified to carry tanks and other armoured vehicles and the problem of towing was solved by the acquisition of fishing vessels and pleasure craft. (It was estimated that the crossing would take 24hrs, and take 4 days to land the first 150 000 men).

At this time the Fallschirmtruppe was under going some changes in preparation for Operation Sealion. A 3rd regiment had been added to the 7th Flieger Division, Major Koch’s Sturmabteilung which proved so successful in operations in Belgium was expanded to regimental size and renamed the Luftlande Sturm (assault) Regiment, now under the command of Oberst Eugen Meindl (later General). These units together with the 22nd Airlanding Division comprising of the 16th, 47th and 65th Infantry Regiments made up the XI Fliegerkorps under the command of General Kurt Student.

During the early planning stages of the operation, the German high command toyed with the idea of smaller actions before the start of Seelowe. These included the capture of the Isle of Wight and the seizure of Cornwall. I myself was born and raised in Cornwall and when I think of this plan to seize my home county it does not sound so ridiculous. Its geographical location would surely make an ideal landing zone for airborne and amphibious forces and an ideal location to defend. Whatever others or I think, the plan never reared its ugly head.

The main landings set for the 21st September, were planned for the south & southeast coast around Kent and Hampshire. Combined glider and parachute assaults would be simultaneously carried out between the towns of Ramsgate and Hythe, the gliders landing in the coastal areas, paratroopers establishing an airhead further inland. Main objectives would be troop concentrations; major road junctions and airfields; the latter to be secured quickly for follow up airlanding infantry.
An amphibious assault on the coastal areas would come soon after, by Infantry and Gebirgs divisions. These would take objectives not secured in the air assault, making way for the follow up Panzer divisions...

....The rest is history, it never happened; we'll just have to speculate. The RAF smashed the Luftwaffe that summer (very much weakening itself in the process); the people of southern England were spared the sight of blossoming parachutes in the summer skies, unlike many other European countries in the previous months.
Hitler indefinitely postponed Sealion on September 17th 1940 and it was never resurrected, not altogether to do with the successes of the RAF but due to another objective that had been on his mind for sometime... Soviet Russia.

The first island assault by German airborne forces would have to wait until the next year when Crete was the target of Hitler's plans.

 

I have to DISagree with your point that 'invasion fever' gripped southern England in the summer of 1940.

In reality, the Britons were very calm about the whole issue.


Caption:
"Meanwhile in Britain, the entire population faced by the threat of invasion, has been flung into a state of complete panic." -August 14, 1940

 

Thats about rite...

 

Are you serious? Did the British and Americans used German men as slaves after the war? Did they killed these German men indiscriminately because they had slept with American or British girls? Did the British and Americans got involved in partisan warfare in Germany that took 100.000 people killed like the Germans in Yugoslavia? Did the Americans or the British create a police state in their respective countries and send millions of people to industrialised extermination centres?

T. A. is right. Germany had to completely defeat the USSR and isolate Great Britain. Complete defeat was impossible without an across-Channel invasion, but such a thing was an uthopia. However, Germany could have isolated Great Britain by submarine warfare; not literally starve the British, but making impossible for them to wage war.

Forget about WSS and paratroopers. Damned élites don't make a decisive difference. A majority of regular troops or 3rd rate units do.

I don't think so. What about the VI Army's 24 veteran divisions, most of which had fiercely fought at Poland and France? These 24 regular divisions would have made a huge difference in Normandy, Italy or even the eastern front later in the war. And that is just a little part of the whole matter.

Here you are supposing and that is the only thing we can do. There simply are no facts at all to prove that Stalin was going to invade Germany. There were plans for a pre-emptive attack on Germany in 1942 or 1943 made by Zhúkov and Timoshenko, but Stalin refused to even see them, let alone agree on this strategy.

The only thing we know for sure is that the Red Armed Forces in 1942 would have been in much better shape. But we cannot dare to say what Stalin would have done with them.

Even some Sopwith Pups!

What about this? The famous English countryside with a lot of green low meadows and hills was in fact very thick oak woods? Where are all those trees? They were the Royal Navy in the centuries XVII, XVIII and XIX. Remeber Nelson's HMS Victory? It's actually 600 acres of English woods…

If I remember well, there was an invasion of the British Isles! There's even a song about it:

"We dreaded the invasion
Now it's come
But at least it's not the bloody Huns,
The goddam Yank Army's home!"