Discussion in 'What If - Pacific and CBI' started by Bomber Harris, May 19, 2009.
Wow that's nothing lol
I'm also wondering, what are the physical and phycological effects of Japan transferring soldeirs from pacifc islands to the tundra's of Russia?
Would the Japanese preformance be alot worse since they were used to the hot humid climate of the Pacific islands and now suddently they are in dry, freeezing russia?
Just a thought.
In 1941 what Japanese troops were on Pacific Islands? Some were admitedly in Indo China but very few (at a guess less than a few thousand) were on tropical Pacfic islands.
I'm not sure of the numbers, but my guess would be more than a few thousand. There were numbers of Japanese troops in southern Indochina, Hainan Island (which is very tropical), Formosa (which is also topical), and the Mandates.
But having said that, I doubt the troops had been there long enough to have become acclimated to a tropical climate, nor would they be any more likely to suffer from acclimation to a tropical climate in northern Asia than they would be to suffer from life-long acclimation to the temperate climate of the Japanese Home islands.
You could well be correct. A lot might depend wether we are counting all military or just army. But since we both seem to like precision.
But it's not an island
I wasn't aware of this one and given what I've just read probably more than a few thousand troops were located here.
Wiki lists the tropic of Cancer as being at 23 degrees 26 minutes and Taiwan as being at 23 degrees 46 minutes. So the majority of the island (assuming the location is a centroid) would not be tropical.
Taiwan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tropics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I was assuming there would be some troops there that's why I didn't suggest a smaller number.
And the numbers would still have only been a small fraction of the Japanese army.
Found this page which does give some numbers:
Regardless of Taiwan's location in relation to the Tropic of Cancer, it still has a tropical climate, due to it's location in the Pacific Ocean.
The Climate of Taiwan
The website on Taiwan you referenced above says as much:
Nice thread! Had the Japanes Imperial Navy brought a task force like the one used at the battle of Midway to the Mediterranean Sea in support of the Afika corps or the Eastern front things might have been different.
How would they get it there?
Counting only IJA troops and support personnel, I'd guess the numbers would be more like the tens of thousands. The IJN really didn't have many troops stationed anywhere outside of the Home Islands prior to December, 1941, except for the crews of warships and aircrews on the Pacific bases, so that part is not worth arguing about.
Well, you were the one who mentioned IndoChina first, but if you only want to count islands for some reason, that's fine with me. The climate of IndoChina is still the same and the effects would be similar on the troop's health and stamina.
As Slipdigit noted, Taiwan definitely has a tropical climate. if you had ever visited you would probably be aware of it. Hawaii and Formosa are almost the same latitude, only two degress difference, and most people think of Hawaii as definitely tropical.
While this is true, the great majority of the Japanese Army was already engaged in China, and the bulk of any reinforcements for the Kwantung Army, should it launch an offensive against the Soviets, would very likely come fronm areas like Formosa, Hainan, and southern Indochina (which had been occupied only in mid-1941 with an eye to attacking Malayasia and the NEI). The only other sources of troops would be through raising new units in the Home Islands.
Slipdigit brings up a most pertinent point. The IJN sure isn't going through the Suez Canal which leaves only the route around the Cape of Good Hope and up through the Straits of Gibraltar, which doesn't sound too judicious either.
Not only would the IJN suffer severely from lack of oilers, replenishment ships, and repair facilities, but the USN would be able to seize the initiative in the Pacific while the Japanese are way tilting at windmills in the Med.
I would send the fleet across the Pacific stopping in friendly Argentina,refit, resupply and meet with the Kriegsmarine and on into the Atlantic. Set a path for the Mediterranean Sea and once thier provide fighter and bomber suppport for actions in the theatre.
So, let's see if I have this right:
The Japanese send their fleet to the Med somehow where it proceeds to get Japan into a war with Britain by supporting the Germans in North Africa. This is truly brilliant. Japan after avoiding a war with the US and Britain gets into one anyway and sends their fleet half way around the world where it is useless to them and highly likely to end up sunk when the last of their irreplacable aircraft are shot down, wrecked, written off, worn out or, whatever.
Argentina was "friendly" to Japan? That's a new one on me.
In any case, the Japanese fleet would have to refuel at least twice just to get there at an economical speed. Once there, the IJN has to replenish; difficult to impossible since no one in South America makes standard IJN munitions or aircraft. It still has no repair facilities; where and how does it "refit"? And where do the spare parts come from? Even if it manages to get to Argentina, and solve these insolvable problems, it is still a long way from Argentina to the Straits of Gibraltar. That, of course, is assuming that the USN does nothing to hamper it's course.
In reality, The US was already, in 1940, putting heavy pressure on Argentina and other South American countries to deny the Axis any kind of aid or assistance and would have viewed any Japanese naval incursion into the Western Hemisphere as an act of war. Politically, in 1940, Japan was still straddling the fence on the question of Axis membership, and even when it became an Axis member in September, it had no intention of aiding Hitler, whom the Japanese sorely mistrusted because of his political maneuvering with the Soviets. By 1941, when the Germans attacked the Soviets, Japan had already made the decision to seize the Southern Resources Area and was not capable of sending a fleet anywhere other than the Pacific.
The idea of a Japanese Fleet in the Med during WW II is simply not within the realm of possibility.
Good answer Devilsadvocate, i agree completely with what you have said.......in hindsight it's a pity that certain members of this form were'nt high ranking IJN officers........because if they were, and their tactical advice was listened to.......well there would'nt have been much of a threat from any Japanese fleet in the Pacific, Alantic, Med.........or the Irish Sea for that matter!
The idea of the thread was what if Japan attack Russia right? Quite sure if the IJN can lead a successful attack on Pearl Harbour then Iam confident it can reach Argentina. It had the best pilots, best planes and they were highly motivated. To say the Japanese were doing thier best to say out of the war is naive, the American expansion was across the Pacific would ultimately force their hand.
Whatever logistical problems that might come up would obviosly have to be worked out in advance. Anyway appreciate all the responses in this forum, right Andy? or is form?
Come on everybody, this guy is a Nazi-revisionist. One "What if" pertaining to an "Anglo-Aryan" attack on Russia "to rid the world of communism", and now this. American expansion did not force the war in the Pacific, American expansion was not occuring. Japanese and nazi expansion is what caused the war.
It will be only a matter of time before he is arguing that except for some egregious mistakes, Nazi goals were the best for Europe.
Mark my words
What makes you think that a hit and run raid on Pearl Harbor is the same thing as reaching Argentina with a fleet? Or anything near to deploying an operational carrier force in the Med?
Argentina is not likely to aid the Japanese Navy, period. Not with it's two largest trading partners putting intense pressure on them to disavow aid to the Axis. And the logistical problems involved were at least an order of magnitude greater than simply steaming to Hawaii and back, so no, they aren't likely to be "worked out in advance". The "best pilots and best planes" are irrelevant when it comes to solving the impossible logistical problems.
As far as the Japanese were concerned, they were doing their best to stay out of the European war while trying to figure out how they could best take advantage of it's consequences. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply historically ignorant. I suggest you study the Japanese Monographs on strategy and policy in the pre-war period; you can find them here:
American expansion across the Pacific? Nope, in fact the Americans were withdrawing their presence in the Philippines, their only major possession in the western Pacific, at the time. Ever hear of the Tydings-McDuffy Act? American foreign policy was based on trade competition and equal market access for all countries. The tensions between Japan and the US were real, but had their basis in something completely different than "American expansion" which was really non-existent at the time. You need to do some in-depth study of Japanese-American relations in the 1930's and 1930's.
Look i am a bona fide Nazi i think everyone on this site knows this but what you come up with is sheer balderdash.
Japanese had the best aircraft, please the Zero fighter may have been a good plane but it did not have armour protection and the fuel tanks were not resealing type, they were flying roman candles, one spark and whooshka a fireball has been made.
You are aware of the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, Inner Mongolia and China or have a severe case of selected memory, the rape of Nanking resutled in the slaughter of more than 200,000 Chinese Civillians. Your portayal of the Japanese in this as a peace loving gentle and cultured society is appaling and an insult to those who lost relatives in the war.
If you want an example of their brutality just take a look at the Burma Railroad for each sleeper on that bastard cost one life. Wake up to yourself.
Well, this is debatable. Roots of the war go way past Versailles back almost in 19th century where it was obvious that Britain is doing all it can to stop Prussian/German development by disrupting construction of Bagdad-Berlin railway by any means possible. Britain has created a net for Germany to fall into with WW1 as Germany was not aware of secret pact between France, Russia AND later the US that was forged against her by Britain. Read more in "Century of War" by William Enghdall. Nazis are mere "byproduct" of later developments. And let us not forget it was British sponsored Serbs who have killed Austro-Hungarian royalty not the other way around. And Japan did not have any other choice but to attack US when US imposed embargo on Japan.
Now, notwithstanding the argumented approach by Devilsadvocate the fact remains that Japan and Germany had roughly the same number of population as USSR. And were technologically way more advanced therefore indicating that they together would beat the Soviets. Because it was 30 immensely tough Siberian divisions that reversed the course of war in front of Moscow first by stopping Guderian at Tula and preventing southern encirclement of the city. If Japan kept Siberians bussy in the east and if US didn't enter the war I think Soviets would have lost the war.
This is the most (or one of the most) mis-informed posts I have ever read here. Please try to show sources and references for the basis of your opinion "Wittman", outside of a single work (Century of War by William Enghdall), or they will simply be that. Opinions and interpretations.