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What if Rommel got what he wanted?

Discussion in 'What If - Mediterranean & North Africa' started by Eisenhower, Oct 21, 2003.

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  1. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    This brings up a good point...
    If Rommel got all the supplies he asked for from Hitler, and was given partial command of Panzer divisions (as you know Hitler controlled all Panzer divisions) would Overlord (d-day) have failed? :confused: there's a lot of things to consider such as "if he was given command over panzer divisions he would have brought them into range of the navy guns." Oh well...if anyone wants to talk Overlord with me, drop me a note.
     
  2. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    This brings up a good point...
    If Rommel got all the supplies he asked for from Hitler, and was given partial command of Panzer divisions (as you know Hitler controlled all Panzer divisions) would Overlord (d-day) have failed? :confused: there's a lot of things to consider such as "if he was given command over panzer divisions he would have brought them into range of the navy guns." Oh well...if anyone wants to talk Overlord with me, drop me a note.
     
  3. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Welcome aboard, 'Ike'. ;) We need some more discussions about D.day. Hope you can help.

    It is not a fact of getting what he needed, but given enough freedom to do what was needed. With complete Allied air-superiority, the best theorical option; Von Runstedt's annihilation battle couldn't be done and the only option for preventing the consolidation of a beachhead was an immediate armoured counterattack. And that had to be done, even with a thousand naval guns ready to annihilate the German forces. There must be a try. And the only try possible was Rommel's choice.
     
  4. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Even had Hitler released extra Panzer divisions, would they have got there ? The 'transportation plan' does seem to have been quite effective and, as was seen with 'Das Reich', panzers on the road take could take a long time to get where they were going....
     
  5. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    Thanks for the welcome, general. yes, he wasn't given much freedom, but that was because of Allied force's Operation Fortitude, keeping most of the German forces just North of the Normandy beaches, yes? I'm not sure how much supplies Rommel was actually given, but I do know that he was always wanting more. yes, an armored counter attack was needed, but I thought the Allied bombardments of the beaches only got rid of all the mines and such stuck out all over the place. I dont recall them ever getting rid of anything else. but of course, being new at this I'm praying for correction any time I put my opinion on here.
     
  6. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    Martin Bull-
    You have a point but I thought there were already Panzer divisions in the area that hitler was not willing to give control over...
     
  7. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    You're right, I just looked it up - the Divisions in question which Rommel requested moved closer to the coast prior to D-Day were the four divisions of the OKW central mobile reserve force.

    BUT it was NOT Hitler who refused them. It was in fact von Rundstedt who objected direct to OKW, arguing that this move would prematurely commit his reserves ( still believing that the Allied thrust would occur in the Pas de Calais ). OKW agreed with this reasoning and overruled Rommel's request.

    Four Panzer divisions would certainly not have helped the invading forces but - you can't blame Hitler for this one.

    ( Thank God for the 'deception plan' !! )
     
  8. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    the armor certainly wouldn't have made it easier, but "impossible?" is the question. i dont think it would be...the airborn devisions dropped behind the beaches would have helped if they were properly equipped, right? hmmm...
     
  9. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    On a different thought...

    You can have "all the things Rommel need" sitting there in France, taking a sunbath until D-Day comes (which noone knows when)...

    ...while the same needful things could have fought the Russians at this very time.

    The usual f**k in a two front war with to less ressources.

    Cheers,
     
  10. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    True, but the Russians weren't a problem. Operation Fortitude was the problem. Yes the Germans were low on supplies because of the two fronts, but they had enough to defend against one invasion...the mistake was they were defending for two (thanks to...again...operation fortitude), one on the northern beaches and one on the southern. The southern was defended only because the real invasion was going to be posed as a fake.
     
  11. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Are you serious?! :eek: 40.000 Germans were lost at Falaise and 500.000 were lost during 'Bagration' at the same time... :rolleyes:

    However, this was not a foolish thing to do. A central reserve was needed to be sent to the invasion spot, whether it was Pas de Calais, Brittany or Normandy. Von Runstedt was the greatest German strategist in the West and his plan was the best theorical option. Here's an old thread with very interesting statements about it:
    Who was right, Runstedt or Rommel?
     
  12. Onthefield

    Onthefield Member

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    Well as you all know Hitler had direct command over all Panzer divisions due to Rundstedt and Romell's "disagreement" and when the invasion happened Rommel wanted to speak to Hitler to have authority to control Panzer divisions but unfortuanetly the Fuhrer was at the time, "in dispose, sleeping". Hitler could not order the Panzer divisions forward due to his catching some z's. Now if Hitler was up and he did agree to Rommel's plea then I don't know if the Panzer's would have stopped the invasion but it would have certainly made it very interesting for the Allies. The airborne troops first, who, if attacked by Panzer divisions, would be seriously outgunned and experience serious difficulty defending their terrain and then possibly for the beachead where the pressure should have been first. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    no no no...general, that's not what I mean. the russians weren't a problem when it came to the lack of supplies, men, etc. on the defense of the beaches of normandy. there was plenty of stuff they were just being sent north of there.
     
  14. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    :confused: Ike, could you please explain what do you mean? :confused:
     
  15. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    I mean: Though the Germans were running low on reinforcements because of the Russians, that was not a problem in defending the beaches. The problem was Operation Fortitude which caused most of the German reserves (such as the 0th divisions...dont look at me i didn't name it) to be positioned north of the planned invasion beaches. If Rommel had those reserves and supplies up north, the battle would have turned out differently. :confused: am i making any sense here?
     
  16. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Now I do get it. If Rommel would have had the central armoured reserve and as many and as good divisions as in Pas de Calais in Normandy, other things might have happened. The only problems still are Allied aerial and naval superiority.
     
  17. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    exactly...as for the allied superiority in the air, a good anti-air defense made it difficult. As for naval, it brings up the subject of the U and E-boats. but from what I read, the E-boats only made one attack at 0537. They hit the Svenner, Norwegian destroyer, but, still...that was another mistake on the German's part. They could have eliminated the naval support, leaving the DD tanks without cover and the infrantry out in the open...
     
  18. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Just to start with I think it was stupid to keep the forces under three different commanders: Rommel, von Rundstedt and Hitler.

    I think it would have worked much better if either von Rundstedt or Rommel had the power over the troops in Normandy.
     
  19. Eisenhower

    Eisenhower Member

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    I agree but, heck... two commanders would have been better. if hitler had kept his nose out of it, it would have been a lot more organized, considering there were two armies with two commanders, A and B.
     
  20. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    No, there were certainly two Armies, but there was also an Army Group and a whole front and all had their respective commanders. Hitler must have remained out of it and leave the supreme commander of the West, marshal Von Runstedt to do his job.
     
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