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Winston Churchill and the years of appeasement

Discussion in 'Prelude to War & Poland 1939' started by harolds, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. harolds

    harolds Member

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    Cornelius Ryan, in his book Berlin Diaries, noted that when war came, the German people were not enthusiastic about it, at all. Goebbles probably was the best "pulse taker" of the German public's attitudes in the German leadership.
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    There Was some 18 million communists and socialdemocrats voting against Hitler in 1933. What happened to them ? Turned to Hitlerists??
     
  3. harolds

    harolds Member

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    As soon as Hitler consolidated his power identified commies went to the KZs. Soc. Dem. leaders also. All others learned to shut up or they got out of the country.
     
  4. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    The Nazis generally were much more lenient than the Stalinists. If you didn't rock the boat you were left alone.

    I don't think anybody knows how many of them became true believers. But Nazi social achievements were impressive so it was easy to believe, at least partially.
     
  5. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Goebbels writes many times in his diaries that he can't wait for peace.
    In October 1939 he wrote, "everyone would like to see peace."
     
  6. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Nazis vs.Stalinists vs. Maoists or whatever is like arguing about pig poop vs. cow poop vs. horse poop....
     
  7. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Everybody wants peace - as long as the other folks give them what they want.
     
  8. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were markedly more free than the USSR.
    You could travel abroad, the media were freer, religion was allowed, independent judiciary existed - Niemöller (first they came for...) was acquitted in 1939, there were independent sources of political power (the Wehrmacht and Churches.)
    Till the Holocaust German Jews were better treated than Russians by their own regime.
    Of course, some of them were killed or imprisoned but the Soviets did it much more massively.

    Eventually, Hitler flipped his lid and started killed civilians in great numbers but as late as 1940 Himmler wrote to Hitler that "[He] rejects as un-German and impossible the Bolshevist method of physical extermination of a people," and Hitler agreed with it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    You could travel abroad, but, in the main it was not really done - usually for business or schooling, and upon return, one always had to report what they had seen & done.

    The media was freer, but not by much.

    Religion was allowed, but controlled by the State.

    The judiciary was not very independent.

    Niemollor was kept in concentration camps until 1945...This is hardly "acquittal" by any definition.

    The Whermacht wielded little political power, but could make its presence felt when necessary.

    As stated earlier, the Church was under control of the State, and had little real power.
     
  10. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Niemöller was protected by Göring or rather by his sister who was his fanatical adherent.
    Eventually, he was tried and acquitted on a technicality, but Hess administratively sent him to a KL (that was parallel to the judiciary method).
    As a high profile prisoner, he spent the time in relative luxury there. He didn't suffer like a typical prisoner.

    And from that concentration camp, when Hitler invaded Poland, he volunteered to serve as a U-boat commander.
    Because actually he was a U-boat commander during the ww1 and his boats sank about fifty Allies' ships.

    We should choose our heroes wisely. Niemöller was a Nazi for many years - even in the camp.

    Of course, no Niemöllers were possible in the USSR, or religion, or anything else.
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Torpedoes your "independent" judiciary....Your acquitted, but we are sending you to prison.

    Actually, he did suffer, and his conditions were not improved until he was sent to Dachau.

    Hmmm...Was Poland invaded in 1938?
    Was Poland invaded in 1941?
    These are the years that he sent letters to Admiral Raeder. Sorry...Has nothing to do with Poland.

    Actually, he was the commander of only one submarine. Niemöller only sank 3 ships. He never commanded a Flotilla, so no other U-Boats were "his". However, he did serve on 4 other boats, but since he was not the captain, they were not "his."

    Well, of course. He did not have his ephinany until Dachau, when he was able to interact with others that were different than he.

    Oh boy...Niemöller was a dissident, there were literally millions of dissidents throughout the life of the Soviet Union. A few even became embedded in Western culture & society.
    So, rather than no Niemöllers, we have millions of them existing in the USSR.

    Religion was also possible in the Soviet Union, and in fact, did exist throughout the lifespan of the USSR.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  12. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    You don't understand.
    He was acquitted but later was interned in Dachau. In his case, it was no different from the internment of Japanese Americans. The only difference was Roosevelt issued an executive order, but Hitler delegated the right to intern people to his bureaucrats.

    It doesn't mean the judiciary wasn't independent; it means there were other means to protectively arrest people, for example Roosevelt's Executive Order 9066.


    I've said it was after the invasion meaning he was motivated to do it by the war.
    Anyway, it's an irrelevant and pointless triviality, the point is he volunteered.



    Again an irrelevant and pointless triviality, "his" means - the boats he served as an officer.
    It's not like the captain of a U-boat sank ships alone - that's positively absurd.
    The point is he wasn't a peaceful man as most people imagine.
     
  13. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    No, there were not millions of dissidents in the USSR, there were hundreds of them in the best of times, i.e., in the sixties.
    And it's a dishonest, apples to oranges comparison, to compare Nazi Germany with the USSR circa 1960, i.e. twenty times later.

    In the case of pre-war Nazi Germany, the only valid comparison is with the (genocidal) Stalinist USSR. After all, both existed at the same time.

    And there's no comparison whatsoever, the Stalinist USSR was slaughterhouse where people were murdered by hundreds of thousands.
    Religion existed in the Stalinist USSR but in a rudimentary state and strictly controlled.
    Religious people were basically outcasts or even dead men walking, waiting for execution.
     
  14. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    Actually it was in 1939.

    Screenshot from 2020-08-20 20-15-40.png
     
  15. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Acctually, as I said, there were millions.
    But, since dissident is the modern term, technically, there were none before the death of Stalin, since such a term was not used for them then. It doesn't mean they did not exist. Hundreds applies only to those that became well known in the West.

    Actually, it's pales to apples. One regime to another. The USSR began far earlier than Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany proceeded at a much faster pace then Stalin's USSR.

    Stalin assumed leadership of the USSR in 1924, Hitler ruled Germany from 1933. So, are you only going to look at the timeframe when each held power?


    Considering the Nazi slaughterhouse surpassed 10 million...Your point?

    That is a falsehood. Religion in the USSR waxed and waned according to the needs of the State. When it was in the State's better interests, Religion was officially sanctioned. When it was considered less desirable, it went back on the shelf.
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Actually, it was 1938, when he wrote his first letter to Admiral Raeder offering to become a U-Boat captain.
    In 1939, he wrote to a friend in the Kriegsmarine with the same offer - hoping it would be passed up the ladder, but it wasn't. He wrote a second time to Admiral Raeder in 1941, once again offering to become a submarine skipper, and again was turned down.

    Thus, as I stated earlier, it had nothing to do with Poland.
     
  17. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    What's the source for " it was 1938 when he wrote his first letter," there was no war then and they had only a handful of submarines.

    I'm comparing two countries when the existed and before the war started. After the war started all bets were off.

    And the fact is:
    "During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, 106,300 were shot."
    In comparison, Nazi Germany was heaven for religious people.
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Sorry, but you do not understand...He was convicted and sentenced to seven months imprisonment, but he had already spent this amount of time in confinement awaiting trial - "Time served" in modern parlayance.

    Further, Dachau was his last prison, not his first.

    Regretfully, he was not "interned".
    No different from Japanese-Americans? I was unaware that Japanese-Americans were placed in solitary confinement.

    Germany was not "at war" in 1938, when he sent his first letter to Admiral Raeder offering to become a submarine captain. Thus, he was not motivated to do it by the war.

    Actually, "his boats" would only be the boats he was Captain of or had command over.

    He was not the one giving orders, but following them.

    Hardly a "pointless triviality".

    No one has been claiming he was a peaceful man all of he life. Niemöller admitted he was not a peaceful man all of his life. He also admitted that he did support Hitler in the beginning
     
  19. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Martin Niemöller: Biography

    Martin Niemöller

    Niemöller had been a close personal friend of Raeder.

    War does not change the nature of the regime.

    Nice Cherry-picking, try the entire passage the next time.
    Seems the numbers vary greatly according to source.
     
  20. wm.

    wm. Well-Known Member

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    And that's better? That the number of monks, nuns and priests killed in the purges is over 200,000

    My point is pre-war Nazi Germany wasn't such a monstrous country as portrayed. In fact, it was among the better available at that time.
    The point is relevant to the subject at hand, i.e., pre-war appeasement and reasons for it.

    I'm not going to discuss irrelevant topics here including Niemöller, especially with a person divining "facts" about him out of thin air.
    And I'm not going to discuss to whom sinking of a ship should have been credited: the boat captain, the crew, the torpedo, or Hitler himself.
    It's all dishonest "poison the well" tactics that kill any discussion dead.
     

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