Because Europe under the Swastika would be hugely preferable... </font>[/QUOTE]Compared to the Sickle and Hammer? Yes. Besides, the Western Allies would have still won with the collapse of the Sovier Union. (yea, here comes a debate on that) CvM
What would you prefer, half of Europe to be Soviet Dominated or ALL of Europe to be under the Nazis? If the Germans had won in Russia (which is not possible honestly, think of the size of the nation) then the chances are they would have taken Britain as well eventually. Sorry, aint a good thing.
I'd have to agree with Jet: NO WWII AT ALL! This is a good point, but don't you think it's right to have 80 million people killed so a couple of idle guys can talk about it? [...] And I certainly do not agree that a Red Europe was better than a Nazi one... The Soviets opressed many people, but they didn't want to annihilate them. I could say that I would like a German TOTAL-WAR economy by 1937, to have not 300, but 500 U-boats in 1939 and have 10.000 tanks for 'Barbarossa' because I don't think the Germans would have lived that bad with all those richess, food, slave workers and terriotry... As a German I would have liked a German victory. But I certainly do not want that because that meant the annihilation of many other nations and peoples as good or even better than the Germans...
Hitler : 6 million killed (I'd say at least 3 million of them German, help me with this number) Stalin: 30 Million Russians Killed (During the 30's) plus 5-10 million more that died of famine because of the 'beloved' marxist collective agriculture. CvM
Correction: Hitler: 30.000.000 Soviets, 6.000.000 Poles, 1.000.000 Czechs, 700.000 French, 1.000.000 Italians, etc., etc. totallising 50.000.000 people including 6 million Germans... And only 50 millions because he didn't win! And there were only 600.000 German Jews. (The actual 10.000.000 Jews killed are included in the cyphers above). And yes, Stalin was a bloody butcher who killed a little less than 30.000.000 people because of his purges, deportations and famines. And just to clarify, those collective farms DID work, producing an enormous ammount of grain. Why the famines then? Because Stalin sold it and got money to build industry and make a super power of the USSR... Unfortunately, it was the only way it could be done. And those 30 million Soviets, you said it, during the 1930s. But how many people died in all Eastern Europe under the few years Stalin was there, and the years of Kruschev, Brezhnev and Gorbachev? Did they deported millions of people to industrialised killing-centres? No, they did not. They killed a lot of innocents during the Budapest uprising and other occassions, but I want to know if they built getthos, gas-chambers, furnances and wanted to exterminate whole races of the continent? [ 25. June 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]
Fried, please do not add war-related casualties to the totals. I am one of those few 'evil' individuals who believes that Hitler is not the catalyst for ww2.
Ha! I'd like to see Hitler or Stalin re-educating me!!! I mean, not even Bush managed me to but the 'Liberty Fries' stupidity...
Of course I bloody will! Who the hell started the war?! And for many years I have been trying to excuse Hitler's actions and trying to believe he was not that bad. All I do when I read and research more and more is to realise that he was as evil as everybody thinks.
Friedrich, i am sorry i forgot, i did not remember how much you love the socialist health care plans? ya know, Cuba is not tooooo far from Mexico (That Damned American) CvM
Oh don't even you dare to say that I symphatise with marxism-leninism! I only accept facts, good and bad facts about socialism, totalitarism and liberalism. None of them is bloody perfect. But they work in different places, times and circumstances. There's no real universal system.
Friedrich, youve told me yourself your a bit of a socialist when it comes to healthcare. Lets not ignite a war here CvM
If socialism means to care about EVERY person in your country and give them the same rights and opportunities (things that Hitler, Mussolini, Roosvelt, Stalin and Churchill believed in), then yes, I'm a socialist.
Touche (SIC) my friend. However, i do find it humorous you mention Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini all in the same sentence when pertaining to domestic Policy. I like your style Fried CvM
I just wanted to point out that all those men did care for the quality of life of their people. Maybe Roosvelt didn't kill many Americans and didn't have the country destroyed but he did care about social good...
Hahaha! Indeed, we all know that following John Maynard Keynes' capitalistic theories and forming as many collective farms and factories as FDR did is to be a communist...
U have no complete clue Fried ! your statements make no sense. I'm not talking about one mans opinions as law. Talking about a great many US servicemen and their families that came home in 1945 and found out what "our" President was doing in Stalin's bedchambers // check on the conferences especailly the last two where the secret deals between Stalin and Roos occurred.....Churchill was out to lunch ~ you've got better access to the net than I and it is there if you look for it.
