WW2 duties of a regional judge

Hi everyone,

I recently found out that one of my grandfathers was a judge of a regional court in East Prussia. He was later sent to the Soviet front as a radio operated and killed.

For a while now I have been horrified by this, knowing that he was a judge during WW2.

But I realise that I don't have all the facts about this, merely assumptions. I feel that if it's not as bad as I think, I need to know, and if it's as bad as I think (or worse) then I should know.

If, between the years of 1937 and late 1944 (before he was sent to the Soviet front) he was a judge ("Landgerichtsrat") in the Regional Court ("Landgericht") of Elbing, East Prussia, how guilty might that make him?

Would he have sent people to their deaths? Sentenced them to be shot, hung or sent to a camp?

I assume the answer is: very lightly. But I rather know than make assumptions.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Florian

 

People will not judge you based on what your grandfather did you do not have to worry about that. No matter what your grandfather did we will certainly help you in finding out more about your grandfather. And if he did send people to their deaths, we will still be accepting. You do not have to worry about that

I'll try to do some research, and welcome to this forum Schumann

 

Would he have been working with the People's Court?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Court_(Germany)

 

Hi Smiley,

Thanks for your welcome, understanding (I was a bit concerned that I might not be welcomed) and help. I really am very grateful.

I really don't know anything about what he did other than that he lived in Elbing and his death certificate refers to him as a Regional Court Judge ("Landsgerichtsrat"). I do have a reference of him in his earlier years as having been a "Gerichtassessor" (from what I learned this is basically an apprentice judge).

I don't know if there is any way of finding out exactly what his role was.

I believe that the People's Court was only found in Berlin (not sure though), of course that doesn't mean that he didn't work for or with them.

Thanks again,

Florian

 

There are many on this forum who can guide your research. It is definitely a unique situation. Welcome to the forum. Do you have any further information other then what you have provided.?

 

Hallo Florien, Welcome to the forum. Germany , like other countries , has had a court system for centuries. They tended to deal with either civil or criminal matters as they do now. With the rise of National Socialism no doubt the Nazi party corrupted the normal judicial processes but you should presume you grandfather innocent of any wrong doing until proven otherwise. He probably was a normal German citizen before the rise of Hitler. It is odd, to me, a judge went or was sent into the army. For all we know he was uncooperative with the Nazi's and they drafted him to remove him from office. I am truly sorry he was killed in the war but I would give him the benefit of doubt. Even if he did or had to do terrible things you would not agree with it does not reflect on you or your current family. .

I have many current German friends who are as baffled as I am as to how the Nazi's took control of their country. . Germany is now a wonderful country, the people are well educated, the country an economic powerhouse based on high quality products , a notable peacemaker, with a real 1000 years of culture, not some made up one that lasted only a few years. Be proud of your country as it is today, be proud of your grandfather based on what you know and if you find out he did bad things then it is time to forgive him. No one now truly knows what he went through.

The Gestapo were beneath contempt but I always believed the Wehrmacht , for the most part, true of most armies, were just good soldiers fighting a war not of their making. I genuinely hope you discover good things about your grandfather.

MFG,

Gaines

 

Thank you KJ. I really appreciate that.

Other than what I've already posted here, I know that he wasn't born in Elbing. He moved to Wuppertal after he got married and at the time was an apprentice judge. I believe that several years later he moved to Elbing. The war broke out a few years after that. When he died he was a Judge in Elbing, so he may have moved to Elbing because he had received an offer to be a judge after he finished his apprenticeship in Wuppertal.

Thanks again for all your help.

Florian

P.S.: Slightly more info in my reply to Gaines below. Not sure if it'll help though. Thanks again.

 

Thank you Gaines. I really appreciate that.

It's strange that you mention that it's odd to you too that he was sent to the front. My father always claimed that my grandfather refused to sentence someone (to death, I think) and was therefore sent to the front. The problem with this is that he (my father) was a compulsive lier - many stories (mostly pointless and unnecessary lies) were told even about the family background and ancestral history that were complete fabrications. Soon after I started my genealogical research, I found evidence to show that many of my father's claims were simply not true (only one remaining that might be true - but it's a long shot). For this reason, I look at the story about why my grandfather was sent to the front with real uncertainty.

My mother, on the other hand, simply saw it as an outright lie (I should mention that my father was just 6 years of age when my grandfather was sent to the front - so my mother doesn't know what happened either). It is her opinion that being a German judge during the war was simply nothing to be proud of. That he must have done bad things to get to this position and while in this position in Nazi Germany must have sent people to their deaths (be it by shooting, hanging, camps, etc.). She also believes that he may have been sent to the front to simply delay the Soviets for as long as possible. I know this was done at the end (which was when my grandfather was send - I think in January 1945), but would it still be un-lightly for a judge to be sent this for this reason?

This is why I'd like to know for sure. I am happy to upload (if it's permitted) pdf copies of what I have on my grandfather so far - a birth, marriage, and death certificate as well as a letter to confirm his last known communication - he was declared missing in action, but I now know that the battalion he was last part of got surround by Soviet tanks. The battalion history ends there. My grandfather was 38 years of age when he did.

Thanks again, and also to everyone helping with this and for the very warm welcomes.

Florian

 

Unfortunately many men who were able bodied were forced into the war, especially in that list ditch effort to disrupt the Soviet advance. He was definitely at that prime age of being conscripted into the Volkssturm.

 

Thanks KJ. I do consider this to be very lightly. It doesn't match what my father said, but unfortunately his stories were never trustable. Thanks for your answer and help. Appreciate it.

 

Thanks very much for those kind words. I really do appreciate it.

Unfortunately, I have nothing to help in researching the role of German judges in WW2. The documents I referred to simply are in regards to my grandfather. And they merely mention his job title. I was hoping to learn more about his role as a judge too. If you do find out anymore, please do let me know. I'd be very grateful.

Many thanks again,

Florian

P.S.: If I find out anymore elsewhere I will be sure to share it with you.

 

Hi JW,

Thanks for your message.

I'm not sure. At first he was referred to as a "Gerichtsassessor." This description now longer is used in German, so I was not familiar with it. My mother immediately told me that it was basically an apprentice judge. I have now Googled it and found out that that was not true (sorry everyone).

It turns out that before you were a judge you first became a Gerichtsassessor, which meant that you were on probation to be a Judge. Once you pass this last state you get the full judge qualification. Click here for the source.


Later (in his death certificate) he was referred to as "Landgerichtsrat," which translates as Regional Court Judge... but yes, he may have had a minor rule. I really don't know.

I wish I knew more.

Florian

 

I have heard about the military courts in the Lapland area where Germans were in 1941-44. I don´t know if the judge could decide much as the rules were in my opinion given to them and they were more or less forced to obey or face the (music) rifles themselves. For instance two company leaders in SS Nord were shot when they refused to attack when they were supposed to cover the flanks of the Finns, and the Finns faced a massive loss of men due to that. Stealing food from kitchen could lead to penalty unit or death.

then again for example a number of Finnish soldiers were shot when they refused to go over the old border in 1941 to the USSR side because they considered it " a robbery and stealing trip ". Even Mannerheim backed the judge decision. And men retreating and escaping in summer 1944 as the Red Army made a major offensive were shot afterwards, some of whom were found back home.

Military court is not even close to normal court. I have read a couple of books by Finnish military judges and none of them had survived without nightmares and problems of health due to the horrible work they were forced to do.

Schumann, probably the East Prussia court was "not that bad" as the front, but to my knowledge listening to foreign radio and black market were things that probably lead to death or camp. But that was the law, not something you could decide. That was the period of Göbbels´unconditional war. The racial matter was for the SS, not judges.

Still, the same things took place in Finland, although we practically did not have holocaust, and refused to send Jews to Germany, but did give Soviet POW´s to Germans who very probably shot them soon after.

A very difficult subject indeed but during war time surviving yourself might be a thing we cannot understand properly because facing military court was sometimes just because you talked to the wrong people about wrong things.

 

Florian, so far in your search can you determine if your grandfather was a civilian judge or a military judge ? Regional judge sounds like a civilian position. He could have been "drafted" into the military but until you know I would say civilian. . Please keep us informed as you go forward, you have lots of support here.

Gaines

 

Lou,

I have two bits of information in regards to this. The first ( View attachment 22087 ) is a reply from the Deutsche Dienstelle (WASt), who are responsible for dealing with providing information about fallen members of the Wehrmacht to the relatives. In it, I am told that (in my rough translation):

• Reinhold Schumann (my grandfather) last made contact on 10 Jan 1945.
  as a member of Unit 8 / Field Replacement Battalion Wensauer.
• They never registered him as missing or killed.
• He was the carrier of the Identification Mark: - 10010 - St.Kp.Füs.E.Btl.68.
  (meaning: Stammkompanie Füsselier-Ersatz-Bataillon 68. Rough translation: "Troop Regiment Replacement-Fusilier-Battalion 68.)
• [SIZE=11pt]On this [/SIZE][SIZE=14.6666669845581px]occasion[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], the Missing Persons department of the German Red Cross has registered him as missing.[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=11pt]Following the information of the search contractor (I believe this was my grandmother), the contractor last got word of my grandfather in January 1945; [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]as a member member of the Field-Post Unit Number 56 609 "F-Stab (Branch?)" 1-5 Company. Field Replacement (or Backup) Battalion 291. Rank: Radio Operator. This unit also never registered him as missing/deceased[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt].[/SIZE]
• In connection to this last point, according the "Missing Picture Lists(?)", the German Red Cross in Munich reports that relatives of members of the Field Replacement Battalion 291 last got in touch from Stachrachowice (Poland) in January 1945 (I believe that the Battalion got surrounded by Soviet tanks in the end).
• After looking at documents handed over by the Soviets, no information was found.

I'm very confused by this. How did he get to be assign in one position and reported back from another?

The second reply I got is a copy of his death certificate ( View attachment 22088 ). My grandmother reported him missing (she had fled Elbing with my father and now lived in Wuppertal). She than had to wait 10 years after reporting him missing before he could officially be declared deceased in Wuppertal. An advisor at the office responsible for handing out these documents told me that anyone who went missing during the war (where no date of death is known) is automatically assigned the date 31 December 1945 Midnight (0:00 or 24 Uhr). Other than calling him a radio operator and regional court judge, there is no information in regards to his role as a judge or the war. (Though it does mention his Elbing address, Fichtestraße 10, Elbing - I can't find it online but I'd love to know if it still exists)


Thanks again.

Appreciated,

Florian


(Dates in these documents are in dd.mm.yyyy format.)

 

Thanks Kai and Gaines.

I have absolutely no idea if he was a civilian or military judge. I'm not even sure what kind of cases the 'Landgericht' was responsible for.

Thanks again,

Florian

 

Don´t know how long the actual court system worked as at one point things were getting pretty hairy as the Red Army was pushing the Wehrmacht backwards in a bit of a rush. Perhaps there were the so-called fast-action courts where the unit leader who probably was not a judge or a lawyer just decided who gets shot. I recall that old Volkssturm people and so on were shot on site because they were just examples to others not leave their post. SS was also in my opinion very active on this. But court action was not anymore needed, the decision was on the spot.