U.S. Decides Against Selling F-16’s to Taiwan

it looks like capitulation to China to me:

"WASHINGTON — The Obama administration has decided not to sell F-16 fighter jets to Taiwan but instead to help it refurbish its existing fleet, prompting criticism in Congress that the United States is buckling to pressure from China.

"The decision, which could be announced as early as this week and was shared with Congressional staff members on Friday, is a consolation prize for Taiwan, which wanted to buy 66 F-16’s to replace jets it bought in 1992 during the administration of the first President George Bush.

"The administration’s calculation, people briefed on the decision said, is that upgrading the old jets would allow Taiwan to defend itself but would avoid opening a major rift with China, which regards Taiwan as a breakaway province and opposes any arms sales to the country.

"That reasoning does not satisfy Taiwan’s supporters in Congress. 'If the reports are true,' Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, said in a written statement on Friday, 'today’s capitulation to Communist China by the Obama administration marks a sad day in American foreign policy, and it represents a slap in the face to a strong ally and longtime friend.'”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/world/asia/us-decides-against-selling-f-16s-to-taiwan.html?hp


Dave

 

Look at who is "condemning" this; a Senator from Texas. Guess where the only production facility for the "Fighting Falcon" is. You guessed it, Fort Worth. Guess what else.

It has only been built and used for export production since the last F-16 was delivered to the USAF way back. The dollars for fighter production have been shifted to both the F-22 and F-35 JSF production/proving. Guess where that money doesn't go? Not all to Texas, but spread around the nation.

If upgrading our own existing F-16 fleet is good enough for us for years without any new purchases, why shouldn't that be good enough for Taiwan?

 

Not to pick nits, but it isn't just Texas that would benefit:

I don't blame either senator for trying to save or bring jobs to their respective states. Their job isn't to represent all the other 49 states, but their own. But I do have to agree with Dave. This is capitulation to the Chinese threat to punish America and any companies that sell weapons to Taiwan. Unfortunately, that's the price we are having to pay for allowing them to put a vice on our collective economic gonads.

To be fair to the current administration, this situation didn't just show up overnight. However, his incompetence in governing and handling the economic crisis has only painted us further into a corner. My fear is that this may only be the beginning of China dictating US economic and foreign policy.

 

The economic relationship between China and the U.S. is mutually beneficial. Why would you annoy your 'most favoured nation trading status' over a flap between a renegade province and the old country?

Remember, China needs a market to sell all of these products to, and trade agreements between nations cross all boundaries of politics, so why the surprise and shock?

What this country would do without the Chinese to buy all of our raw materials is anyone's guess. The push by China and India to modernise is creating jobs all over the western world as we speak. Coal production in this country has confirmed orders from the Chinese for the next 30 YEARS at least, never mind the natural gas plant built here that has Chinese customers EXCLUSIVELY.

The economic and social benefits of this relationship should be obvious to all. Why spoil it with rogue salesof military hardware that the Taiwanese could do without anyway if their intentions are based around regional security alone?

 

Taiwan a renegade province? Isn't it the official Nationalist China? They are a recognised independent nation and allied to the U.S. and many western nations.
The real reason is not to offend the communist banker of the west and it's only the beginning.
I think Kerrd is right.

 

The United States has been a staunch supporter of China since the Boxer Rebellion.

Our mutual economic dependence guarantee's that good relations will always be so, as long as this state of affairs continues. It does not look like ending any time soon.

And, from a strictly Chinese point of view, Taiwan IS a 'renegade province'. Formosa was soverign Chinese territory. It is now a seperate state, but this does not change the attitude of the main-lander's themselves.

Furthermore, what on earth does a tenth rate military power like Taiwan need an advanced weapon system like the F-16 Fighting Falcon for?

 

Beware my friends in America, it is the slippery slope - the Chinese will be calling the tune in very subtle ways.

I can only hope that you put house in order soon since all the free world still depends on you.

We, British, remember the Suez Crisis - Ike got his way by threatening to call in the massive debts we owned the USA. He who has the money has a tremendous leverage.

 

Permit me to jump in here.
1) Taiwan is NOT a "renegade province of the PRC"; indeed, if you follow the legal history of Taiwan (Formosa), it technically remains as "Unincorporated US Territory under US Military Government Jurisdiction." Let's not get into the politics of it all, and just settle for the fact that the ROC is a democracy of 23 million people. They need US support to stay a democracy. The last time Taiwan was "sovereign territory of China" was in 1898. Does Volga Boatman endorse selling Mustangs to the Nazis because of the "economic benefits" available while the US cowered in fear of their might? Geez.

2) The reason ROCAF needs the F-16s is due to attrition in the number of airframes available for defense. They'd take the F16A/B models if Lockheed still built them. Although the upgrades that have been authorized to proceed will bring the existing ROCAF F-16A/B airframes up to the standards of the F-16C/D without the need to switch to the larger and heavier C/D airframe, the action will not address the loss of the ~60 unit F-5E/F fleet which is nearing retirement after 30 years of service. Hence, it's not a technological issue; it's purely a numbers issue.

ROCAF represents the remainder of a long-standing military relationship between Nationalist China and the USA that dates back to the Flying Tigers of WW2 fame. Furthermore, their F-16 pilots have faired quite well in stateside contests against USAF pilots (21st Sqdn "Black Jack"). Let's not shoot the horse out from under them while they are standing guard on behalf of democracy in the Far East. Every morning, when the F-16s take off here in Hualien, I feel the sound of freedom pounding in my chest.

 

Thank you.

 

It is the correct decision to not sell such a weapon system to Taiwan.

Formosa Straight is a flashpoint spot. What is the use of aggravating one ally to please another?

The Chinese are not going to war with the Taiwanese any time soon. The Global Policeman will see to that. Meantime, the Police have to avoid antagonising their friends in Asia, so no sale.

If you were President, you would make exactly the same decision for the same reasons.

Just as an aside, Australian pilots do very well on exercise. In the seventies, we managed to generate 'kills' with intelligent use of radar assets. I know this for a fact because my last step-father used to repair these radar sets. He told me of an exercise that resulted in two American aircraft 'splashed'. This had not occured before, and the Yanks were scratching their heads until informed of exactly how it was done.

We Aussies get results out of second rate equipment, prooving that the type of equipment used is secondary to HOW it's used.

But for all that, Australia is still a fourth rate military power. We just don't have the money to be anything else. We train the Taiwanese. That makes them tenth rate. I ask again, what does a tenth rate military power NEED advanced fighter aircraft for? They only have one possible use for them....CHINA.

Why stir the pot?

 

Further, my opinion of Taiwan as a 'renegade province' was 'from a strictly mainland point of view'. Not to put to fine a point on it, but there seems to be a little China bashing in all of this.

We are not fighting the cold War anymore.

 

Maybe lazy people are not fighting the Cold War any more... others are.

If the US-ROC alliance vs. PRC is not still fighting the Cold War, then why hasn't Communist China yet removed the clause they added to their consitution in 1982 to lay claim to Taiwan? Why is there no Peace Treaty in effect to end China's Civil War? Which country is insisting that the Taiwan Strait is a "flashpoint" as you declare it to be? Which country fires missiles across it? Wake up and smell the roses.

Just because the PRC hasn't yet laid claim to something belonging to Australia is not a good excuse for turning your back on the defense of freedom. Any WW2 historian would recognize that fact, as well as the repetition of history that is taking place now as the PRC goes unchecked in swallowing bits and pieces of its neighbors, going so far as to declare the entire South China Sea to be a part of the PRC.

Furthermore, if I was President, (contrary to the words you are trying to stuff in my mouth) I'd order the sale, back it up with some fleet exercises near Taiwan, and tell the PRC to learn to respect the inalienable right of self-determination belonging to persons living in other countries. (I'd probably even go so far as to set up the covert sinking of the Shi Lang, without loss of life, if the PRC fails to recognize Taiwan independence immediately.)

So, why is it that you don't seem to care about 23 million free and democratic people whose ancestors have repeatedly fought and died over centuries for their priviledge of being so today?

Have you gone soft? There seems to be a little aiding and abetting "the enemy" (defined as a country who has no interest in peace and mutual respect) here.
Do you plan to stand up and say, "Sure, I want to ruled by Beijing!" when the PRC decides it owns your home, too?

 

Plenty of questions for you, VB. Just testing your mettle. Let's see how it goes...
(The first is perhaps a ridiculous question, but... How often does an Australian citizen pilot ships on the Volga River? Enlighten me.)

Why would a vitually defenseless region called Australia be in need of advanced military equipment such as B-25s, B-24s, P-39s, P-51s, etc. during WW2?
(WW2 is the focus of this forum, yes?)
Does Port Moresby come to mind in any way?

ANZUS worked wonders in defeating the Japanese incursions during WW2, and the captured Brit leadership was being held as POWs in my home, Hualien (Karenko). How about offering a "Thanks for the continued cooperation", or are you now willing to sell your freedom to the CCP to line your own pockets?

 

Volga Boatman is a reference to the Glen Miller tune....it's actually topical for WW2, but you have to dig a little in your memory to uncover it.

The Chinese may be seen to be many things, but awakening the old and tired political doctrine of "The Red Menace" is not my cup of tea. It was a tactic to win votes then as now. We had similar left-overs from McCarthyism in Oz as well, and it died a deserving death, principally because it was hogwash. It's still hogwash today.

What did we need 'advanced weapon systems' in 1942 for? Well, the facts are that we didn't. The Japanese 'invasion' of this country was so much scare-mongering. Over-extended as they were, by the time all of the American military aid arrived here, the issue had already been decided by Coral Sea, and then Midway. We built up forces here for the advance back, and for Europe, (the 'Empire Air Training Scheme' turned out over 14,000 pilots!). When I hear phrases like "selling freedom", "gone soft", or "sounds of freedom", it's time to remind everyone that freedom is an abstract concept. There is no 'sound' to it, any more than shape or substance. So, phrases in general conversation that include these words are really designed to appeal to sentiment, not to logic.

I appreciate that you have a vested interest in the machinations of the Taiwanese, but really, why continue a many decade conflict that really exists in the minds of the collective members of the region? Time to come to terms, and bury the Chinese Civil War for good. Then we can all get back to what we do best....making money and prospering as members of an inclusive society, rather than dragging out old scores to argue about.

The Chinese aren't perfect, but they are our friends just as much as their cousins across the Formosa Strait.

Live with it. It's a concept we should all get used to.

What have you, as an individual, done to improve relations? Lets put our own houses in order before we begin to throw stones at mine.

 

Thank you for your detailed explanation! I enjoy listening to a little Glenn Miller, too.

"A tactic to win votes"? How amusing it is that the Taiwnese have the privilege of voting... any thoughts on how that came to pass?

I have a vested interest in protecting the democracy in Taiwan because I live here and am married to an aboriginal. If you see what has happened to other indigenous peoples who fell under control of the CPC, then you might gain a little more understanding of why I feel it is important to preserve one of the few remaining matriarchal societies in existence, the Amis of Taiwan. Try to put yourself in our shoes. Imagine the PRC laying claim to Australia, and establishing an exclusive recognition policy to deny your existence as a country, demand you learn learn Mandarin Chinese, withold any instruction in English, and punish you for speaking your own language and/or expressing your cultural heritage and religious freedoms.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Chinese Civil War should be officially ended, but I don't believe that it should come at the price of selling out 23 million independent Taiwanese to the PRC. Rather, establishing two countries who are allies has always been my approach to the "Taiwan Problem". Which of the two Chinas is preventing this peaceful resolution?

In response to your query, "I have continued to support the defense of my family's homes against a totalitarian government that has illegally laid claim to them. I don't advocate violence against China, only the defense of Taiwan. Indeed, I try to welcome visitors from the Mainland when I encounter them."

Now, other than to stop shooting at them, "What has the China you support ever done to improve relations with the Taiwanese over the past 60 years?"

 

Our society is pulling itself apart from something called 'multi-culturalism'. To be an Australian in another fifty years will be impossible, because we will have no national identity by then, just a mish-mash of different interest groups all totally convinced that Australian cultural values are 'suspect decadence', whilst their own old country values become more and more seen through rose tinted glasses. I dont know why people bother to emigrate if all they are going to do on arrival in their new country is to fantasisze about 'the good old days' in the wreck of a nation they just came from.

No wonder the right wing elements , especially the religious right, are becoming more and more militant. They didn't ask for their way of life to be junked entirely, yet this is what immigrants do. Furthermore, they seem to bring the very worst aspects of the respective 'cultures' with them.

I am beginning to see the wisdom of the man who said, "When I hear the word 'culture', I automatically reach for my gun."

It would be very nice to believe that the Taiwanese and the mainlanders could see themselves as more alike than they are different

 

Boy. Luckey you guys are not in charge of foreign policy for the most powerful industrial power on earth. You would have bankrupted the U.S. a long time ago. At some stage, everyone has to live together, so why delay this process over outdated politics that means nothing to anybody anymore?

China will emerge with a new generation and a new attitude. It's happened before. This is what you get with a gerontocracy.

Meantime, don't push the damned button. To use the words of an American politician...."We all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future, and we are all mortal."

 

@VG, perhaps we are sharing similar sentiments, but from different origins, and are having some difficulty communicating this.
I have several Aussie/Kiwi friends here in Hualien Taiwan. They like it here as much as I do, and likewise feel it is worth protecting.
Nobody is "pushing the damned button," while the Mainland Chinese politicians seem to be the only ones stubbornly keeping their finger on it.

And, I'd hardly call a request to BUY a/c from the USA and create jobs there in exchange for offering some hardware to Taiwan as "bankrupting the U.S.".
Where's the logic in your statement? I don't get it...

 

And I enjoy listening to the Volga Boatman....Our one here and the Russian singalong...Its in my sig....Doesnt make me a pinko commie though.

One question. Its not faceacious in any way...Would Americans die for Taiwan? How far do
you take its defence? To the mutual assured destruction of the still present cold war? New
York for Taiwan?

 

Rumours of our mothballed GR9's being sold to Taiwan...They have expressed an interest. Nothing to do with F16 fallout though.

Interestingly....we were quite interested in mainland China giving us their spondoolics a few
years ago...All's fair in love war and finance.
I have in my possesion a comb-bound BAe document entitled, on the cover, British Aerospace Close Support Harrier, BAeK.36, December 1978. It was issued by BAe's Kingston-upon-Thames division.

The title page states further; British Aerospace Technical Proposal Harrier for The Peoples Republic of China...

The document is a technical description covering airframe, mechanical systems, powerplant, cockpit, handling, etc, etc. It is heavily illustrated with illustrations taken from various Harrier manuals, including a B&W reproduction of the large full-colour airbrush illustration completed by Rolls Royce of the Pegasus engine.