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191st Tank Battalion

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by burt, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. andymorris70

    andymorris70 New Member

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    The photo above was taken at the barbed fire fence on the West side of the Dachau concentration camp on April 29, 1945, the day that the camp was liberated by American troops. Stephan Ross, on the far left, had been a prisoner in 10 different concentration camps.
    Stephan Ross is one of the most well known survivors of the Holocaust. I have a whole page on my website here, devoted to his story. The following quote is from my website:

    The following information about Stephen Ross is from The New England Holocaust Memorial:
    The effort to build the New England Holocaust Memorial began with a Holocaust survivor, Stephen Ross (Szmulek Rozental), who was imprisoned at the age of 9 and whose parents, one brother and 5 sisters were murdered by the Nazi’s. Between 1940 and 1945, he survived 10 different concentration camps.
    Like so many others Stephen Ross suffered terribly. “His back was broken by a guard who caught him stealing a raw potato. Tuberculosis wracked his body. He once hid in an outhouse, submerged to his neck in human waste, to save himself from being shot. At one time he was hung [by his arms] for eating a raw potato.” At age fourteen he was liberated from the infamous torture camp Dachau by American troops. Stephen will never forget the soldiers who found him, emaciated and nearly dead. They liberated him from a certain death.”
    When Stephen and his older brother, Harry, the only other surviving family member, were released from the Dachau Camp to seek medical attention, they came upon a U.S. Tank Unit. One of the soldiers jumped off his tank, gave Stephen and Harry his rations to eat and put his arms around Stephen. Stephen fell to his knees, kissed the G.I.’s boots and began to cry for the first time in five years.
    The soldier took out of his pocket a piece of cloth and gave it to Stephen to wipe his tears. Stephen later found out that it was a small American Flag with 48 stars. This small flag is a treasured item and it will be kept by Stephen and his children as a symbol of freedom, life, compassion and love of the American soldiers.

    On Veteran’s Day this year, there were several stories in the news about Stephan Ross, who finally met the family of Steven Sattler, the American soldier who had given Ross a small American flag to dry his tears of joy, 67 years ago.
    One of these stories, from the Mail Online, is quoted below:

    Stephan Ross, now 81, was ten years old when U.S. serviceman Steve Sattler came across him, emaciated and terrified at Dachau concentration camp in Germany.
    After handing over his rations to the boy during the 1945 liberation, Sattler then gave the ten-year-old his handkerchief decorated with the Stars and Stripes. […]
    Mr Ross, who now lives in Newton, Massachusetts, had spent the War in ten different concentration camps. […]
    Sattler was a member of the 191st Tank Battalion who were part of the troops who liberated Dachau, about ten miles northwest of Munich in southern Germany.

    Ross was actually 14 years old when he was liberated from Dachau. He had been imprisoned since the age of 9, and during those five years, he had been in 10 different camps.
    The following quote is from the story in the Boston Globe:

    Some 67 years ago, a broken, emaciated boy looked up and saw an American soldier sitting astride a tank outside the gates of Dachau, the 10th concentration camp the boy had endured during the long war.
    The hazel-eyed soldier hopped down and handed the boy rations he was eating. The boy ate with his fingers before dropping to his knees and kissing the soldier’s boots. A radio crackled with orders for the soldier to move on as part of the liberation effort. But first, the soldier hoisted the boy up and handed him a handkerchief decorated with a 48-star American flag.
    Yesterday, clutching that flag in a velvet pouch, the boy, now an 81-year-old man of Newton, thanked the family of the soldier in person for the first time.

    Was a tank from the 191st Tank Battalion really parked outside the Dachau gate?
    This quote is from a letter written by Lt. Col. Felix Sparks of the 45th Division, one of the two divisions that are credited with liberating Dachau:

    A day or so after the fall of Nurnberg, I was designated as a task force commander, with the mission of moving with all possible speed towards Munich, Germany. At that time, I was a lieutenant colonel commanding the Third Battalion, 157th Infantry Regiment, 45th Infantry Division, Seventh United States Army. Attached to my battalion for this mission were the entire 191st Tank Battalion,, Battery C of the 158th Field Artillery, and supporting engineers from the 120th Engineer Battalion […]
    At 0730 on the morning of April 29, the task force had resumed the attack with companies L and K and the tank battalion as the assault force.

    According to Lt. Col. Sparks, the 191st Tank Battalion was involved in the liberation of Dachau, although the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gives credit only to the 45th Division, the 42nd Division and the 20th Armored Division as liberators of Dachau.
    You can read the full story of the liberation of Dachau on my website here.
     
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  2. andymorris70

    andymorris70 New Member

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    The United States Army Center of Military History, has the Holocaust Index of all the Units and what camps they liberated.
     
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  3. andymorris70

    andymorris70 New Member

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    by Master Sergeant Tom Tucciarone of 191st Tank Battalion: On Wednesday 29th December 1989, the tv show Unsolved Mysteries by Mr. Robert Stack talked about the liberation of Dachau and the troops who liberated them. Also there are approximately 250 sub-camps that are attached to the main camp. That is one reason for all the confusion about Dachau. I been to Dachau several times when I was stationed in Vilsick and Hohenfels (bases in Bavaria Germany, just north Munich & Dachau). People will remember a division or an army, more than Tank Battalion of 685 men respectfully)

    The photo above was taken at the barbed fire fence on the West side of the Dachau concentration camp on April 29, 1945, the day that the camp was liberated by American troops. Stephan Ross, on the far left, had been a prisoner in 10 different concentration camps.
    Stephan Ross is one of the most well known survivors of the Holocaust. I have a whole page on my website here, devoted to his story. The following quote is from my website:
    On Veteran’s Day this year, there were several stories in the news about Stephan Ross, who finally met the family of Steven Sattler, the American soldier who had given Ross a small American flag to dry his tears of joy, 67 years ago.
    The following information about Stephen Ross is from The New England Holocaust Memorial:
    The effort to build the New England Holocaust Memorial began with a Holocaust survivor, Stephen Ross (Szmulek Rozental), who was imprisoned at the age of 9 and whose parents, one brother and 5 sisters were murdered by the Nazi’s. Between 1940 and 1945, he survived 10 different concentration camps.
    Like so many others Stephen Ross suffered terribly. “His back was broken by a guard who caught him stealing a raw potato. Tuberculosis wracked his body. He once hid in an outhouse, submerged to his neck in human waste, to save himself from being shot. At one time he was hung [by his arms] for eating a raw potato.” At age fourteen he was liberated from the infamous torture camp Dachau by American troops. Stephen will never forget the soldiers who found him, emaciated and nearly dead. They liberated him from a certain death.”
    When Stephen and his older brother, Harry, the only other surviving family member, were released from the Dachau Camp to seek medical attention, they came upon a U.S. Tank Unit. One of the soldiers jumped off his tank, gave Stephen and Harry his rations to eat and put his arms around Stephen. Stephen fell to his knees, kissed the G.I.’s boots and began to cry for the first time in five years.
    The soldier took out of his pocket a piece of cloth and gave it to Stephen to wipe his tears. Stephen later found out that it was a small American Flag with 48 stars. This small flag is a treasured item and it will be kept by Stephen and his children as a symbol of freedom, life, compassion and love of the American soldiers.
    One of these stories, from the Mail Online, is quoted below:
    Ross was actually 14 years old when he was liberated from Dachau. He had been imprisoned since the age of 9, and during those five years, he had been in 10 different camps.
    Stephan Ross, now 81, was ten years old when U.S. serviceman Steve Sattler came across him, emaciated and terrified at Dachau concentration camp in Germany.
    After handing over his rations to the boy during the 1945 liberation, Sattler then gave the ten-year-old his handkerchief decorated with the Stars and Stripes. […]
    Mr Ross, who now lives in Newton, Massachusetts, had spent the War in ten different concentration camps. […]
    Sattler was a member of the 191st Tank Battalion who were part of the troops who liberated Dachau, about ten miles northwest of Munich in southern Germany.
    The following quote is from the story in the Boston Globe:

    Some 67 years ago, a broken, emaciated boy looked up and saw an American soldier sitting astride a tank outside the gates of Dachau, the 10th concentration camp the boy had endured during the long war.
    The hazel-eyed soldier hopped down and handed the boy rations he was eating. The boy ate with his fingers before dropping to his knees and kissing the soldier’s boots. A radio crackled with orders for the soldier to move on as part of the liberation effort. But first, the soldier hoisted the boy up and handed him a handkerchief decorated with a 48-star American flag.
    Yesterday, clutching that flag in a velvet pouch, the boy, now an 81-year-old man of Newton, thanked the family of the soldier in person for the first time.

    Was a tank from the 191st Tank Battalion really parked outside the Dachau gate?
    This quote is from a letter written by Lt. Col. Felix Sparks of the 45th Division, one of the two divisions that are credited with liberating Dachau:

    A day or so after the fall of Nurnberg, I was designated as a task force commander, with the mission of moving with all possible speed towards Munich, Germany. At that time, I was a lieutenant colonel commanding the Third Battalion, 157th Infantry Regiment, 45th Infantry Division, Seventh United States Army. Attached to my battalion for this mission were the entire 191st Tank Battalion,, Battery C of the 158th Field Artillery, and supporting engineers from the 120th Engineer Battalion […]
    At 0730 on the morning of April 29, the task force had resumed the attack with companies L and K and the tank battalion as the assault force.

    According to Lt. Col. Sparks, the 191st Tank Battalion was involved in the liberation of Dachau, although the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum gives credit only to the 45th Division, the 42nd Division and the 20th Armored Division as liberators of Dachau.
    You can read the full story of the liberation of Dachau on my website here.

    Also in the book " The day the Thunderbird Cried" by David Isreal. Also in the United States Center of Military History & Historical Research Branch: Holocaust Index of all units who liberated Concentration Camps. 191st Tank Battalion, 645th Tank Destroyer Battalion, 120th Engineer battalion and battery C of 158th Field Artillery. LTC. Sparks later became Brigadier general and retired.
     
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  4. cyannris

    cyannris New Member

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    I just want to clear up something on this forum. Dave Kerr mentioned on this forum that the files on the Arts & Memories Museum blog pages are his. We have no way of knowing that as the files did not come from him. They came from someone who gave us permission "to share so that others might benefit from them." We have no idea if the donor got them from Dave Kerr because the person did not tell us how he acquired them for his research. The one file that Dave said was created by him, was removed from the blog. Dave also says his files were in jpeg and the files we received were in pdf files. Since the NARA pdf files did not have Dave Kerr's name on them, we got permission from NARA to use them on our blog.

    I have in my possession a letter from George Campbell to his wife dated July 2, 1945. The letter states, "Dear I am going to send you some more pictures to have developed. I am also going to include one to show you what the concentration camp you hear so much about looked like the first day (April 29th) I saw it...When anyone tells you they don't know why we are in this war show them this picture. This is in front of the place where they were burning them. There is a large room full & forty box cars full beside these. This is just what they didn't have time to burn." George Campbell was part of the 191st Tank Battalion. The photo has a large stack of dead bodies piled high against a building.
     
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  5. Stevesdaughter

    Stevesdaughter recruit

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    Make no doubt about it. The 191st were there. My father talked about their Division approaching the gate at Dachau Camp and nobody really knew what was behind the gate and/or the significance of what this was.
     
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  6. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    My understanding is that the NARA documents cannot be copyrighted and are public domain. The one non-NARA document did not have any copyright info on it, but you did the right thing by removing it. However, in checking your blog it seems all of the 191st documents have been removed which is unfortunate. I hope you will reconsider that decision. It is a fantastic resource for family members who are trying to find out more about their relative's WWII service.
     
  7. andymorris70

    andymorris70 New Member

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    another
    Hello Steve, My grandfather was S/SGT Julius John Faricelli, Able Company / Charlie company spent the night as security, My grandfather remembers TASK FORCE Dolvin (Lt.Col Dolvin, Commander 191) "Able" and Charlie were escorting Charlie 158 Artilliary Bn., "I" Company, 3rd Battalion/157th Infantry regiment ( Lt.Col. Sparks)
    orders on 28 April 1945 to attack Munich, Germany. One mile south of CITY of Dachau and 8-20 miles west of Munich. They did security halt on Autobahn, they tighten and grease tracks, oiled weapons, ate, feed some of the poor people begging for food and moved out approximately 0900 1100 hours they ran into rail toad cars, smell the death, urine and poo as they clime hill. come over the crest, Germans fired machineguns and panzer fest (bazooka). The tanks fired back, it took awhile for the eyes, nose and the brain to comprehend the situation. Your dad, Lt. Steve Sattler ripped off his invasion patch off his right shoulder to wipe the tears and face of Victim and prisoner in Dachau Concentration camp and younger brother.

    On Veterans Day, Dachau concentration camp survivor thanks family of GI who liberated him - The Boston Globe

    another is "Able" and "Charlie" companies fought together in Aschaffensburg, Germany. 25 march - 6 April[​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Battle Nuremburg, germany

    [​IMG]
     
  8. andymorris70

    andymorris70 New Member

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    [​IMG]

    "Able" Company Tank knocked out in Nuremburg, Stadium

    [​IMG]


    I believe "Charlie" company Tank Nuremburg

    [​IMG]

    Aschaffenburg, Germany
     
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  9. andymorris70

    andymorris70 New Member

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    [​IMG]

    45th Division and 191st celebrate battle Nuremburg
     
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  10. kerrd5

    kerrd5 Ace

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    Dachau.

    There were no tanks of the 191st Tank Battalion at the gates of Dachau KZ on the morning of 29 April 1945.

    From the Battalion S-3 Report for that date:

    "Blown bridges along the AMPER River stopped the advance of tanks."

    The Bn CP was established in the town of Dachau at 1515 on 29 April.

    Site of the 191st Command Post, 29 April 1945, at 1515.

    WT742691 Dachau RS.jpg


    Nord de Guerre Zone, WT 742691.


    Dave
     
  11. WILD DUKW

    WILD DUKW Active Member

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  12. Taylor Waldon

    Taylor Waldon New Member

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    Hi All,

    Hoping someone is still watching this thread. I'm looking for any documents that can place Company B of the 191st Tank Battalion from September 1943 - November 1944. I've had the hardest time filling in some gaps in a family history I'm helping piece together for a client. I've tried a few archives and I have a few after after action reports here and there, but I need to place him in Cava de'Terreni / Passiano area some time that Fall/ Winter to figure out details about how he met his wife - and so far nothing I've found aligns. Here's the info I have on my client's father:

    (Alderic George Fortin // George Alderic Fortin - His name was backward on his discharge papers)
    31033553, Private, Co. B, 191st Tank, Army

    His personnel record is long gone thanks to the Archive Fire. Medically Discharged October 1944.

    Thanks!
     
  13. Alsatian

    Alsatian New Member

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    The 45th Infantry Division in WWII group at Facebook has made available hundreds of historic documents. This is free and you don't need to be a member of the FB group.

    The documents include copies of the division newspaper during your time frame. They also have daily summaries from the division HQ. Those two document types are the best bet for locating the 191st at certain times.

    The docs are found in this Airtable website: 45th Infantry Division Documents
     
  14. MWagner

    MWagner New Member

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    The 191st Tank Battalion served also in Salerno coming ashore 9 Sep 43.
    A publication can be downloaded from Amazon, the pamphlet name is Salerno 9 September - 6 October 1943. Text discusses first action post D day (Salerno). See also 1st and 2nd battle of the Tobacco Factory in same pamphlet.
     
  15. MWagner

    MWagner New Member

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    I don't know if this publication cites specifically Co. B, but goes to lengths to discuss 191st landing in Salerno and Tobacco Factory battle after D-Day (Salerno, Italy).
    Publication titled Salerno: 9 September - 6 October 1943 and can be found on Scribd the reading website. This particular item is a Pamphlet under the American Forces in Action Series.
     
  16. Rick Forman Jr

    Rick Forman Jr New Member

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    Hello all! I am going to attempt to revive this thread with some hopes that anyone who may still be active on this forum might be able to help me further my research on my grandfather. As a young grandson, I always looked up to my grandfather (grampy) being a veteran of WWII. I have the utmost respect for all veterans, but there is something about the selflessness and level of courage that all men and women had serving in WWII to fight to defend the free world. As i got older, i became more intrigued with learning more about his service in the war, he never liked to talk much about it, but he did share some of his basic information with me. Unfortunately, my grandfather passed in 2012 at the age of 90. He was buried at the Massachusetts National Cemetery in Bourne, MA with a traditional military style funeral with our small family in attendance.

    The time has come where my grandmother (92), is beginning to part ways with some of her possessions due to wanting to move into assisted living. She has informed me that she will be handing my grandfathers tri-folded flag over to me and i would like to discuss any types service documents, books, etc that she might still have. So hopefully i will have more information coming in the future.

    I do know, that his name is Saul Forman and he served as a Tech 5 in the 191st Tank Battalion. His service sounds to have included most of the 191st's campaign. Beginning with the landing in North Africa, moving to Anzio and battling up through southern France, Alsace, and through to Munich. I know this is a highly contested topic, but it is claimed that he was involved in the liberation of Dachau. I see that the 191st was mostly attached to the 45th infantry division which would line up with a lot of the aforementioned information. I have done my reading around through this forum and have seen that the 191st may or may NOT have been there due to no bridge crossings.

    I am doing anything I can to try and find more information regarding his service number or any type of discharge papers. I would like to consult with my grandmother when i see her in the near future. Below is the text that my grandmother submitted for his official obituary, however, i am not entirely sure this information is 100% accurate. I believe Patton was only in command of the 191st for a short time:

    "After high school graduation, Saul joined the Army, serving for five years, including time overseas with the 5th Army of the 191st Tank Battalion under General Patton. Combat included the North African Campaign, the Hell at Anzio, the race through southern France, Alsace and Munich. The final victory was the participation in the liberation of a concentration camp at Dachau."



    any help would be extremely appreciated. Even if there are websites where i may be able to find his military records. I am very intrigued by my grandfathers participation in the war and would like to learn anything i can.
     
  17. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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  18. Rick Forman Jr

    Rick Forman Jr New Member

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    Saul Sumner Forman
     
  19. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, now we have the correct Saul. His draft card is interesting though, since he registered on 26 July 1945, when he was 23. He should have registered earlier in 1940, unless he had already enlisted in the National Guard? Company B, 191st Tank Battalion was the prewar 26th Tank Company, Massachusetts National Guard, which was federalized 20 February 1941 at Fort George G. Meade, Maryland. Does that fit in with anything you know of his service? The battalion did not return to the States (Camp Henry, Virginia) until 7 December 1945. However if he was federalized NG and stayed with the battalion throughout its service, he probably had enough points to rotate home for discharge early and may have been home by July 1945. If he had been discharged or was about to be discharged he would have had to then register for the draft. His draft board was in Dorchester.
     
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  20. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Never mind, I should have looked more closely. Yes, he enlisted 3 February 1941 and then was federalized 17 days later! I wonder if he expected that to happen or he just thought it was a better option than registering for the draft? His ASN was 20157389. He was also admitted to hospital in February 1944 with a primary diagnosis of folliculitis cheloidalis (a scalp condition) and a secondary diagnosis of nasopharyngitis, acute (the common cold). Unfortunately that is all I could glean from the available records online.

    Your next step would be any papers your grandmother might have. If that doesn't work, you might want to check with the Suffolk County Courthouse to see if he deposited a copy of his discharge there after the war. Most, but not all vets did, which is good because most of the WWII records held by the US Government in St Louis, Missouri were destroyed by a fire in 1973.
     
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